比爾‧默立森先生專訪
Bill Mollison calls himself a field biologist and itinerant teacher. But it would be more accurate to describe him as an instigator. When he published Permaculture One in 1978, he launched an international land-use movement many regard as subversive, even revolutionary.
比爾‧默立森（Bill Mollison）自許為田野生物學家與巡迴教師。然而精準特寫他是一位導師或先知。當他1978年出版「樸門永續農業」（Permaculture One）時，順道發起跨越國界的土地利用運動，很多人認為這是極具顛覆性的革命運動。
Permaculture–from permanent and agriculture – is an integrated design philosophy that encompasses gardening, architecture, horticulture, ecology, even money management and community design. The basic approach is to create sustainable systems that provide for their own needs and recycle their waste.
樸門農業- 永續的農業-是一套整合式的設計理念，包含農藝、建築、園藝、生態，甚至財務管理和社區規劃。基本的做法是建立可持續的系統，讓該系統能自行供應所需，並不斷循環利用自身的廢棄物。
Mollison developed permaculture after spending decades in the rainforests and deserts of Australia studying ecosystems. He observed that plants naturally group themselves in mutually beneficial communities. He used this idea to develop a different approach to agriculture and community design, one that seeks to place the right elements together so they sustain and support each other.
在研究澳洲的熱帶雨林與沙漠生態系統數十年之後，默立森發展出永續栽培的概念。他觀察各種植物自然聚集成為互助群落的現象，並利用這觀念發產出特殊的農業策略與社區規劃方法，其中的要旨是把適當的組成元素組合在一起，讓他們相輔相成而持續不墜。 Today his ideas have spread and taken root in almost every country on the globe. Permaculture is now being practiced in the rainforests of South America, in the Kalahari desert, in the arctic north of Scandinavia, and in communities all over North America. In New Mexico, for example, farmers have used permaculture to transform hard-packed dirt lots into lush gardens and tree orchards without using any heavy machinery. In Davis, California, one community uses bath and laundry water to flush toilets and irrigate gardens. In Toronto, a team of architects has created a design for an urban infill house that doesn't tap into city water or sewage infrastructure and that costs only a few hundred dollars a year to operate.
在研究澳洲的熱帶雨林與沙漠生態系統數十年之後，默立森發展出永續栽培的概念。他觀察各種植物自然聚集成為互助群落的現象，並利用這觀念發產出特殊的農業策略與社區規劃方法，其中的要旨是把適當的組成元素組合在一起，讓他們相輔相成而持續不墜。 Today his ideas have spread and taken root in almost every country on the globe. Permaculture is now being practiced in the rainforests of South America, in the Kalahari desert, in the arctic north of Scandinavia, and in communities all over North America. In New Mexico, for example, farmers have used permaculture to transform hard-packed dirt lots into lush gardens and tree orchards without using any heavy machinery. In Davis, California, one community uses bath and laundry water to flush toilets and irrigate gardens. In Toronto, a team of architects has created a design for an urban infill house that doesn't tap into city water or sewage infrastructure and that costs only a few hundred dollars a year to operate.
如今，他的思想幾乎已經傳遍全球，並且紮根深化。永久性農業此刻正在南美洲的熱帶雨林被實踐、也在非洲喀拉哈里沙漠、在斯堪的納維亞半島北部的極地、更在遍布北美洲的許多社區。例如美國新墨西哥州，農民利用永續栽培設計，不需借助重型機具，就把硬實密壓的污染土地轉化為樹木茂盛的花果樂園。在加州的戴維斯市，有個社區利用洗澡水、洗衣水去沖馬桶和澆灌花園。在加拿大多倫多，有建築師團隊替都市內的住宅創設一套系統，不需要依賴城市的供水管線或污水處理設施，而且每年的運作費用只需幾百美元。
While Mollison is still unknown to most Americans, he is a national icon down under. He has been named Australia's “Man of the Year” and in 1981 he received the prestigious Right Livelihood Award, also known as the Alternative Nobel Prize, for his work developing and promoting permaculture.
雖然大多數美國人依然不曾聽聞過莫利森的事蹟，但他已經成為澳洲的國家象徵之一。他曾經被封為澳洲的「風雲人物」，並於1981年獲頒著名的美好生活獎（也被稱為另類諾貝爾獎），正是因為他致力於發展、推廣樸門永續設計。
I sat down with him to discuss his innovative design philosophy. We met over the course of two afternoons in Santa Barbara in conjunction with an intensive two-week course he teaches each year in Ojai. A short, round man with a white beard and a big smile, he is one of the most affable and good-natured people I've met. An inveterate raconteur, he seems to have a story – or a bad joke – for every occasion. His comments are often rounded out by a hearty and infectious laugh.
他每年會到加州歐海市（Ojai）開授為期兩週的密集課程，課程中間的兩個午後時光，我和他相約在聖塔巴巴拉（Santa Barbara），討論這新穎的設計哲學。一位個子不高、身材圓潤的男子，滿臉白鬍子加上開懷的笑容。他是我所見過最和藹善良的人士之一，頑固而又健談，他似乎可以針對任何場合都說出一個故事——或者嚴肅的玩笑；他的評論往往是以爽朗而引人共鳴的笑聲來結尾。
Scott London (here-in-after London): A reviewer once described your teachings as "seditious."
史考特倫敦(以下簡稱倫敦)：有位評論家曾經形容您的教誨是在「煽動」人們。
Bill Mollison (here-in-after Mollison) : Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, it's seditious. But it's peaceful sedition.
比爾莫利森(以下簡稱莫利森)：沒錯，那描述非常敏銳。我教導自力更生，這是全世界最顛覆的一回事。我教人們如何種植自己的糧食，這是令人震驚的顛覆。嗯，是的，它確實在煽動人；但這是平靜的煽動。
London : When did you begin teaching permaculture?
倫敦 ：你什麼時候開始傳授樸門永續設計？
Mollison : In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had ever applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We'd had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we'd been losing for 7,000 years — everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings. And physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It's curious that we never apply what we know to how we actually live.
莫利森：在70年代初，我恍然大悟，原來從來沒有人把設計應用在農業上。當我意識到這想法，全身一陣毛骨悚然，這實在太怪異了。我們經歷了7000年的農業，而我們也經歷了7000年的喪亡，一切都淪為沙漠。所以我想到：能不能遵從生態原則來建立各種系統或制度？我們知道那些原理，但我們卻不曾應用它們。生態學家從來沒有好好把生態學運用在他們的園圃裡面；建築師不曾了解建築物裡面的熱能傳輸；而物理學家居住的房子則能源系統一片混亂。我們從來沒有把我們的知識應用在我們實際的生活中，這非常奇怪。
London : It tells us something about our current environmental problems.
倫敦：這透露出當前環境問題的一些跡象。
Mollison : It does. I remember the Club of Rome report in 1967 which said that the deterioration of the environment was inevitable due to population growth and overconsumption of resources. After reading that, I thought, "People are so stupid and so destructive — we can do nothing for them."” So I withdrew from society. I thought I would leave and just sit on a hill and watch it collapse. It took me about three weeks before I realized that I had to get back and fight. [Laughs] You know, you have to get out in order to want to get back in.
莫利森：確實。我記得在1967年的羅馬俱樂部報告中有讀過：「由於人口增長和對資源的過度消費，環境惡化是不可能避免的結果。」讀完那報告之後，我暗想「人類真是太愚蠢、又太破壞環境了——我們做什麼也沒用。」所以，我退出了社會。我想就遠離世俗吧，只要坐在山上，看著人類社會崩塌。 大約三個星期之後，我意識到，我必須回去、進行反抗。[笑]你知道，人要在逃逸之後，才會有再次回去的動力。London : Is that when the idea of permaculture was born?
倫敦 ：那也是您孕育出樸門永續設計概念的時期嗎？
Mollison : It actually goes back to 1959. I was in the Tasmanian rain forest studying the interaction between browsing marsupials and forest regeneration. We weren't having a lot of success regenerating forests with a big marsupial population. So I created a simple system with 23 woody plant species, of which only four were dominant, and only two real browsing marsupials. It was a very flexible system based on the interactions of components, not types of species. It occurred to me one evening that we could build systems that worked better than that one. That was a remarkable revelation. Ever so often in your life — perhaps once a decade — you have a revelation. If you are an aborigine, that defines your age. You only have a revelation once every age, no matter what your chronological age. If you're lucky, you have three good revelations in a lifetime. Because I was an educator, I realized that if I didn't teach it, it wouldn't go anywhere. So I started to develop design instructions based on passive knowledge and I wrote a book about it called Permaculture One. To my horror, everybody was interested in it. [Laughs] I got thousands of letters saying, "You've articulated something that I've had in my mind for years," and "You've put something into my hands which I can use."
莫利森：它實際上可以追溯到1959年，當時我在塔斯馬尼亞島的雨林中研究植食性有袋動物和森林更新之間的關聯。當大型有袋動物的族群數量太高時，森林生態的更新情況並不好；因此，我創設了一個簡單的系統，其中有23種木本植物，4種為優勢種，並納入兩種植食性的有袋動物。這是一個非常靈活的系統，它的基礎是各系統成員之間的互動關係，而不是各別物種的類型。有一天晚上靈光乍現，我想到我們可以建造出比那更好的系統。 那是值得紀念的天啟。這難得的開竅經驗在你我一生中並不常見，也許10年才發生一次。假如你是原住民，你的年齡將由這種經驗來定義：每一次的天啟代表你進入下一個年齡階段，不論你的實際歲數是多少。幸運的話，你一生中會經歷三次美好的天啟。 因為我是一個教育工作者，我意識到，如果我不去教授它，它不會有絲毫的流傳。於是，我開始以被動的知識（passive knowledge）為基礎，發展設計的準則，我寫了一本書叫做《永久性農業之一》（Permaculture One）。這本書受歡迎的程度簡直讓我驚駭。[笑]我收到數以千計的信件說，「你所闡明的內容，多年來也一直浮現在我的腦海」和「你讓我知道如何真正善用手邊的器物。」London : Permaculture is based on scientific principles and research. But it seems to me that it also draws on traditional and indigenous folk wisdom.
倫敦：永久性農業是基於科學的原理和研究。但是，它似乎也汲取了傳統知識與原住民族的智慧。
Mollison : Well, if I go to an old Greek lady sitting in a vineyard and ask, "Why have you planted roses among your grapes?" she will say to me, "Because the rose is the doctor of the grape. If you don't plant roses, the grapes get ill." That doesn't do me a lot of good. But if I can find out that the rose exudes a certain root chemical that is taken up by the grape root which in turn repels the white fly (which is the scientific way of saying the same thing), then I have something very useful. Traditional knowledge is always of that nature. I know a Filipino man who always plants a chili and four beans in the same hole as the banana root. I asked him, "Why do you plant a chili with the banana?" And he said, "Don't you know that you must always plant these things together." Well, I worked out that the beans fix the nitrogen and the chili prevents beetles from attacking the banana root. And that works very well.
莫利森：恩，如果我到了希臘，向一位葡萄園間的老婦人問說「為什麼你要在葡萄旁邊種植玫瑰？」她會對我說，「因為玫瑰是葡萄的醫生。假如你不種植玫瑰，葡萄就會生病。」這回答不能直接使我受益。但假如我能因此發現，玫瑰根部分泌出某些化學物質，被葡萄根系吸收，進而能驅避害蟲白粉蝨（這是以科學方式表達同一件事），就對我非常有幫助了。 傳統知識總是類似這種性質。我認識一位菲律賓男子，他永遠都會在香蕉根部附近種植四顆豆子和一株辣椒。我問他「你為什麼把辣椒跟香蕉種在一起？」他說「你難道不知道混種這些東西是天經地義的嗎？。」後來我歸結出其中的道理：豆子可以幫忙固氮，而辣椒可以防止甲蟲攻擊香蕉根部，這方法的效果極佳。
London : You have introduced permaculture in places that still rely on traditional farming practices. Have they been receptive to your ideas?
倫敦：你也將樸門農法引入依然遵循傳統耕作方式的地方。他們是否會接受你的想法？
Mollison : I have a terribly tricky way of approaching indigenous tribal people. For example, I'll go to the Central Desert, where everyone is half-starved, and say, "I wonder if I can help you." And I'll lie and say, "I don't know how to do this?" And they say, "Oh, come on, we'll make it work." By the time it's done, they have done it themselves. I remember going back to a school we started in Zimbabwe. It's green and surrounded by food. The temperature in the classroom is controlled. I asked them, "Who did this?" They said, "We did!" When people do it for themselves, they are proud of it.
莫利森：我和原住民部落族人交往時有個分常巧妙的方法。例如，我到了澳洲中央沙漠，那裡的每個人幾乎都在半飢荒狀態，我說：「我不知道自己是否可以給你任何協助。」然後我會撒謊說，「我不清楚接下來該怎麼做。」他們回應說「哦，一起來吧，我們會讓它成功運作的。」最後水到渠成，他們自己完成了那些事。 我記得在辛巴威的某所學校，我們之前曾做了些起頭工作；當我再次重返那校園時，到處都充滿綠意，食物環繞在四周，教室的溫度也獲得調節。我問他們：「是誰做的？」他們說「我們！」當人們為自己做出改變，他們會對此感到自豪。London : For some people — particularly indigenous tribes — the notion that you can grow your own food is revolutionary.
倫敦：對有些人來說，尤其是原住民部落，「你可以種植自己的食物」這種觀念如同革命一般強烈。
Mollison : When you grow up in a world where you have a very minor effect on the land, you don't think of creating resources for yourself. What falls on the ground you eat. And your numbers are governed by what falls on the ground. Permaculture allows you to think differently because you can grow everything that you need very easily. For example, the bushmen of the Kalahari have a native bean called the morama bean. It is a perennial that grows underground and spreads out when it rains. They used to go out and collect it. But after they were pushed off their lands to make room for game and natural parks the morama bean was hard to find. I asked them, "Why don't you plant them here?" They said, "Do you think we could?" So we planted the bean in their gardens. Up to that point, they never actually thought of planting something. It stunned them that they could actually do that. The same thing happened with the mongongo tree which grows on the top of sand dunes. They had never actually moved the tree from one dune to another. But I went and cut a branch off the mother tree and stuck it in the sand. The thing started to sprout leaves and produce mongongo nuts. Now they grow the trees wherever they want.
莫利森：當你所生長的世界，讓你對土地的影響力微不足道時，你就不會想到要替自己創造資源。有什麼東西落在地上，你就吃什麼。而你的號碼（身份證字號）也同樣由那些落在地面的機構所統治。永久性農業則讓你有不同的思維，因為你可以很輕易地種植你所需要的一切。 例如：喀拉哈里沙漠的布希曼人，擁有一種稱為morama的原生豆科植物。它是多年生的，平常在地底下蔓延，等到降雨之後才會發出芽。以往布希曼人會外出採集這種植物。但是當他們被迫遷，離開自己的土地，為了騰出空間給遊憩與自然公園，就很難找到morama豆子。我問他們：「為什麼你們不在這兒種植 morama？」他們說「你認為我們可以這樣做嗎？」於是，我們到園圃裡去種植豆子。在那時間點之前，他們從來沒想過要種植任何東西。他們非常驚訝自己竟然可以做出這種事。 類似的例子還有一種果樹mongongo，它生長在沙丘的頂部。事實上，布希曼人不曾在沙丘間移植過任何一棵樹。但是，我在那裡找了棵母樹，剪下枝條插在沙子裡，枝條漸漸萌芽抽葉，最後結出mongongo堅果。如今，他們隨心所欲到處種植這種果樹。
While Mollison is still unknown to most Americans, he is a national icon down under. He has been named Australia's “Man of the Year” and in 1981 he received the prestigious Right Livelihood Award, also known as the Alternative Nobel Prize, for his work developing and promoting permaculture.
雖然大多數美國人依然不曾聽聞過莫利森的事蹟，但他已經成為澳洲的國家象徵之一。他曾經被封為澳洲的「風雲人物」，並於1981年獲頒著名的美好生活獎（也被稱為另類諾貝爾獎），正是因為他致力於發展、推廣樸門永續設計。
I sat down with him to discuss his innovative design philosophy. We met over the course of two afternoons in Santa Barbara in conjunction with an intensive two-week course he teaches each year in Ojai. A short, round man with a white beard and a big smile, he is one of the most affable and good-natured people I've met. An inveterate raconteur, he seems to have a story – or a bad joke – for every occasion. His comments are often rounded out by a hearty and infectious laugh.
他每年會到加州歐海市（Ojai）開授為期兩週的密集課程，課程中間的兩個午後時光，我和他相約在聖塔巴巴拉（Santa Barbara），討論這新穎的設計哲學。一位個子不高、身材圓潤的男子，滿臉白鬍子加上開懷的笑容。他是我所見過最和藹善良的人士之一，頑固而又健談，他似乎可以針對任何場合都說出一個故事——或者嚴肅的玩笑；他的評論往往是以爽朗而引人共鳴的笑聲來結尾。
Scott London (here-in-after London): A reviewer once described your teachings as "seditious."
史考特倫敦(以下簡稱倫敦)：有位評論家曾經形容您的教誨是在「煽動」人們。
Bill Mollison (here-in-after Mollison) : Yes, it was very perceptive. I teach self-reliance, the world's most subversive practice. I teach people how to grow their own food, which is shockingly subversive. So, yes, it's seditious. But it's peaceful sedition.
比爾莫利森(以下簡稱莫利森)：沒錯，那描述非常敏銳。我教導自力更生，這是全世界最顛覆的一回事。我教人們如何種植自己的糧食，這是令人震驚的顛覆。嗯，是的，它確實在煽動人；但這是平靜的煽動。
London : When did you begin teaching permaculture?
倫敦 ：你什麼時候開始傳授樸門永續設計？
Mollison : In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had ever applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We'd had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we'd been losing for 7,000 years — everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings. And physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It's curious that we never apply what we know to how we actually live.
莫利森：在70年代初，我恍然大悟，原來從來沒有人把設計應用在農業上。當我意識到這想法，全身一陣毛骨悚然，這實在太怪異了。我們經歷了7000年的農業，而我們也經歷了7000年的喪亡，一切都淪為沙漠。所以我想到：能不能遵從生態原則來建立各種系統或制度？我們知道那些原理，但我們卻不曾應用它們。生態學家從來沒有好好把生態學運用在他們的園圃裡面；建築師不曾了解建築物裡面的熱能傳輸；而物理學家居住的房子則能源系統一片混亂。我們從來沒有把我們的知識應用在我們實際的生活中，這非常奇怪。
London : It tells us something about our current environmental problems.
倫敦：這透露出當前環境問題的一些跡象。
Mollison : It does. I remember the Club of Rome report in 1967 which said that the deterioration of the environment was inevitable due to population growth and overconsumption of resources. After reading that, I thought, "People are so stupid and so destructive — we can do nothing for them."” So I withdrew from society. I thought I would leave and just sit on a hill and watch it collapse. It took me about three weeks before I realized that I had to get back and fight. [Laughs] You know, you have to get out in order to want to get back in.
莫利森：確實。我記得在1967年的羅馬俱樂部報告中有讀過：「由於人口增長和對資源的過度消費，環境惡化是不可能避免的結果。」讀完那報告之後，我暗想「人類真是太愚蠢、又太破壞環境了——我們做什麼也沒用。」所以，我退出了社會。我想就遠離世俗吧，只要坐在山上，看著人類社會崩塌。 大約三個星期之後，我意識到，我必須回去、進行反抗。[笑]你知道，人要在逃逸之後，才會有再次回去的動力。London : Is that when the idea of permaculture was born?
倫敦 ：那也是您孕育出樸門永續設計概念的時期嗎？
Mollison : It actually goes back to 1959. I was in the Tasmanian rain forest studying the interaction between browsing marsupials and forest regeneration. We weren't having a lot of success regenerating forests with a big marsupial population. So I created a simple system with 23 woody plant species, of which only four were dominant, and only two real browsing marsupials. It was a very flexible system based on the interactions of components, not types of species. It occurred to me one evening that we could build systems that worked better than that one. That was a remarkable revelation. Ever so often in your life — perhaps once a decade — you have a revelation. If you are an aborigine, that defines your age. You only have a revelation once every age, no matter what your chronological age. If you're lucky, you have three good revelations in a lifetime. Because I was an educator, I realized that if I didn't teach it, it wouldn't go anywhere. So I started to develop design instructions based on passive knowledge and I wrote a book about it called Permaculture One. To my horror, everybody was interested in it. [Laughs] I got thousands of letters saying, "You've articulated something that I've had in my mind for years," and "You've put something into my hands which I can use."
莫利森：它實際上可以追溯到1959年，當時我在塔斯馬尼亞島的雨林中研究植食性有袋動物和森林更新之間的關聯。當大型有袋動物的族群數量太高時，森林生態的更新情況並不好；因此，我創設了一個簡單的系統，其中有23種木本植物，4種為優勢種，並納入兩種植食性的有袋動物。這是一個非常靈活的系統，它的基礎是各系統成員之間的互動關係，而不是各別物種的類型。有一天晚上靈光乍現，我想到我們可以建造出比那更好的系統。 那是值得紀念的天啟。這難得的開竅經驗在你我一生中並不常見，也許10年才發生一次。假如你是原住民，你的年齡將由這種經驗來定義：每一次的天啟代表你進入下一個年齡階段，不論你的實際歲數是多少。幸運的話，你一生中會經歷三次美好的天啟。 因為我是一個教育工作者，我意識到，如果我不去教授它，它不會有絲毫的流傳。於是，我開始以被動的知識（passive knowledge）為基礎，發展設計的準則，我寫了一本書叫做《永久性農業之一》（Permaculture One）。這本書受歡迎的程度簡直讓我驚駭。[笑]我收到數以千計的信件說，「你所闡明的內容，多年來也一直浮現在我的腦海」和「你讓我知道如何真正善用手邊的器物。」London : Permaculture is based on scientific principles and research. But it seems to me that it also draws on traditional and indigenous folk wisdom.
倫敦：永久性農業是基於科學的原理和研究。但是，它似乎也汲取了傳統知識與原住民族的智慧。
Mollison : Well, if I go to an old Greek lady sitting in a vineyard and ask, "Why have you planted roses among your grapes?" she will say to me, "Because the rose is the doctor of the grape. If you don't plant roses, the grapes get ill." That doesn't do me a lot of good. But if I can find out that the rose exudes a certain root chemical that is taken up by the grape root which in turn repels the white fly (which is the scientific way of saying the same thing), then I have something very useful. Traditional knowledge is always of that nature. I know a Filipino man who always plants a chili and four beans in the same hole as the banana root. I asked him, "Why do you plant a chili with the banana?" And he said, "Don't you know that you must always plant these things together." Well, I worked out that the beans fix the nitrogen and the chili prevents beetles from attacking the banana root. And that works very well.
莫利森：恩，如果我到了希臘，向一位葡萄園間的老婦人問說「為什麼你要在葡萄旁邊種植玫瑰？」她會對我說，「因為玫瑰是葡萄的醫生。假如你不種植玫瑰，葡萄就會生病。」這回答不能直接使我受益。但假如我能因此發現，玫瑰根部分泌出某些化學物質，被葡萄根系吸收，進而能驅避害蟲白粉蝨（這是以科學方式表達同一件事），就對我非常有幫助了。 傳統知識總是類似這種性質。我認識一位菲律賓男子，他永遠都會在香蕉根部附近種植四顆豆子和一株辣椒。我問他「你為什麼把辣椒跟香蕉種在一起？」他說「你難道不知道混種這些東西是天經地義的嗎？。」後來我歸結出其中的道理：豆子可以幫忙固氮，而辣椒可以防止甲蟲攻擊香蕉根部，這方法的效果極佳。
London : You have introduced permaculture in places that still rely on traditional farming practices. Have they been receptive to your ideas?
倫敦：你也將樸門農法引入依然遵循傳統耕作方式的地方。他們是否會接受你的想法？
Mollison : I have a terribly tricky way of approaching indigenous tribal people. For example, I'll go to the Central Desert, where everyone is half-starved, and say, "I wonder if I can help you." And I'll lie and say, "I don't know how to do this?" And they say, "Oh, come on, we'll make it work." By the time it's done, they have done it themselves. I remember going back to a school we started in Zimbabwe. It's green and surrounded by food. The temperature in the classroom is controlled. I asked them, "Who did this?" They said, "We did!" When people do it for themselves, they are proud of it.
莫利森：我和原住民部落族人交往時有個分常巧妙的方法。例如，我到了澳洲中央沙漠，那裡的每個人幾乎都在半飢荒狀態，我說：「我不知道自己是否可以給你任何協助。」然後我會撒謊說，「我不清楚接下來該怎麼做。」他們回應說「哦，一起來吧，我們會讓它成功運作的。」最後水到渠成，他們自己完成了那些事。 我記得在辛巴威的某所學校，我們之前曾做了些起頭工作；當我再次重返那校園時，到處都充滿綠意，食物環繞在四周，教室的溫度也獲得調節。我問他們：「是誰做的？」他們說「我們！」當人們為自己做出改變，他們會對此感到自豪。London : For some people — particularly indigenous tribes — the notion that you can grow your own food is revolutionary.
倫敦：對有些人來說，尤其是原住民部落，「你可以種植自己的食物」這種觀念如同革命一般強烈。
Mollison : When you grow up in a world where you have a very minor effect on the land, you don't think of creating resources for yourself. What falls on the ground you eat. And your numbers are governed by what falls on the ground. Permaculture allows you to think differently because you can grow everything that you need very easily. For example, the bushmen of the Kalahari have a native bean called the morama bean. It is a perennial that grows underground and spreads out when it rains. They used to go out and collect it. But after they were pushed off their lands to make room for game and natural parks the morama bean was hard to find. I asked them, "Why don't you plant them here?" They said, "Do you think we could?" So we planted the bean in their gardens. Up to that point, they never actually thought of planting something. It stunned them that they could actually do that. The same thing happened with the mongongo tree which grows on the top of sand dunes. They had never actually moved the tree from one dune to another. But I went and cut a branch off the mother tree and stuck it in the sand. The thing started to sprout leaves and produce mongongo nuts. Now they grow the trees wherever they want.
莫利森：當你所生長的世界，讓你對土地的影響力微不足道時，你就不會想到要替自己創造資源。有什麼東西落在地上，你就吃什麼。而你的號碼（身份證字號）也同樣由那些落在地面的機構所統治。永久性農業則讓你有不同的思維，因為你可以很輕易地種植你所需要的一切。 例如：喀拉哈里沙漠的布希曼人，擁有一種稱為morama的原生豆科植物。它是多年生的，平常在地底下蔓延，等到降雨之後才會發出芽。以往布希曼人會外出採集這種植物。但是當他們被迫遷，離開自己的土地，為了騰出空間給遊憩與自然公園，就很難找到morama豆子。我問他們：「為什麼你們不在這兒種植 morama？」他們說「你認為我們可以這樣做嗎？」於是，我們到園圃裡去種植豆子。在那時間點之前，他們從來沒想過要種植任何東西。他們非常驚訝自己竟然可以做出這種事。 類似的例子還有一種果樹mongongo，它生長在沙丘的頂部。事實上，布希曼人不曾在沙丘間移植過任何一棵樹。但是，我在那裡找了棵母樹，剪下枝條插在沙子裡，枝條漸漸萌芽抽葉，最後結出mongongo堅果。如今，他們隨心所欲到處種植這種果樹。
London : You once described modern technological agriculture as a form of "witchcraft."
倫敦：您曾經把現代科技化的農業稱為一種「巫術」形式。
Mollison : Well, it is a sort of witchcraft. Today we have more soil scientists than at any other time in history. If you plot the rise of soil scientists against the loss of soil, you see that the more of them you have, the more soil you lose. I remember seeing soldiers returning from the War in 1947. They had these little steel canisters with a snap-off top. When they snapped the tops off, they sprayed DDT all over the room so you never saw any more flies or mosquitoes — or cats. [Laughs] After the war, they started to use those chemicals in agriculture. The gases used by the Nazis were now developed for agriculture.。 Tanks were made into plows. Part of the reason for the huge surge in artificial fertilizer was that the industry was geared up to produce nitrates for explosives. Then they suddenly discovered you could put it on your crops and get great results.
莫利森：嗯，這它確實是一種巫術。今天在世界上的土壤科學家人數遠勝於歷史中的任何時期。但是如果我們對照土壤科學家的增加以及全球土壤的喪失；您會發現土壤科學家越多，地球喪失的土壤也越多。 我想起1947年從戰場返回家園的軍人。他們有一種小鋼罐，只要在開口處用力一折，就能噴灑出滴滴涕藥劑，軍人在房間裡到處噴，於是一隻蚊子也不剩，但是貓也一樣消失了。[笑]戰爭結束之後，有人開始在農業領域使用這些化學製品。二次世界大戰中納粹所使用的氣體，如今被挪用到農業上；坦克車被改裝成鐵牛車。合成肥料大舉湧上市面的部分原因，也是因為相關產業在戰爭時期傾其全力生產硝酸鹽來製造炸藥；等到戰後，他們突然發現，你可以把它添加在作物上，並獲得巨大的產量。
London : So the green revolution was a kind of war against the land, in a manner of speaking.
倫敦 ：因此，從這角度來看，綠色革命其實是向土地開戰。
Mollison : That's right. Governments still support this kind of agriculture to the tune of about $40 billion each year. None of that goes to supporting alternative systems like organic or soil-creating agriculture. Even China is adopting modern chemical agriculture now.
莫利森 ：是的。各國政府依然支持這種農業，每年達到400億美元左右的規模。這些經費都沒有用來支持其他替代系統，例如有機農業或是培育土壤的農業。就連當今的中國，也採用現代化學農企業。
London : I remember the late economist Robert Theobald saying to me that if China decides to go the way of the West, the environmental ballgame is over.
倫敦：我記得已故的經濟學家羅伯特‧西奧博爾德（Robert Theobald）曾經對我說「如果中國決定走上西方世界的道路，那全球的環境也就玩完了。」
Mollison : I overheard two "Eurocrats" in Vienna talking about the environment. One said, "How long do you think we've got?" The other said, "Ten years." And the first one said, "You're an optimist." So I said to them, "If China begins to develop motor vehicles, we've got two years."
莫利森：我在維也納時無意間聽到兩位「歐盟官員」在談論環境，第一位問「你認為我們還有多少時間？」另一位回答：「10年。」第一位說「您可真是樂觀。」我接著對他們倆人說：「如果中國開始發展汽車，那我們還有兩年。」
London : What kind of overconsumption bothers you the most?
倫敦 ：哪一種類型的過度消費最使你煩惱？
Mollison : I hate lawns. Subconsciously I think we all hate them because we're their slaves. Imagine the millions of people who get on their lawn-mowers and ride around in circles every Saturday and Sunday. They have all these new subdivisions in Australia which are between one and five acres. You see people coming home from work on Friday, getting on their little ride-on mowers, and mowing all weekend. On Monday morning you can drive through these areas and see all these mowers halfway across the five acres, waiting for the next Friday. Like idiots, we spend all our spare time driving these crazy machines, cutting grass which is only going to grow back again next week.
莫利森 ：我痛恨草坪。我認為每個人在潛意識中都厭惡草坪，因為我們是草坪的奴隸。想像一下，每個星期六和星期日，有數百萬人爬上剪草機、到處繞圈圈的情景。 現在澳大利亞政府把草坪規格重新劃分成1至5英畝。週五傍晚你會看到人們下班回家，卻用整個週末在駕駛他們的小割草機。星期一早上，當你開車經過那些草坪，卻又看到所有的割草機都停放在五英畝草坪的中間，等候下一個星期五。像白痴一樣，我們用掉所有騰出的閒暇時間，來操作這些瘋狂的機器，修剪一週之後又會再次茂盛的花草。
London : Permaculture teaches us how to use the minimum amount of energy needed to get a job done.
倫敦 ：永久性農業教導我們如何使用的最低度的能源來完成一項工作。
Mollison : That's right. Every house should be over-producing its energy and selling to the grid. We have built entire villages that do that – where one or two buildings hold the solar panels for all sixty homes and sell the surplus to the grid. In seven years, you can pay off all your expenses and run free. They use this same idea in Denmark. Every village there has a windmill that can fuel up to 800 homes.
莫利森：是的。家家戶戶都應該生產多餘的能源並回銷給公立電網。我們已經建立了幾個村莊達到這種理想——其中一、兩座建築物裝配有太陽能電板，供應給村中的60 戶住家，多餘的電力回銷給網格電力公司。7年之後，你就可以賺回所有的花費然後獲得免費的電力。也有人在丹麥使用相同的構想，每個村莊都有一座風車，可以供應800戶家庭的電力需求。
London : The same principle probably applies to human energy as well. I noticed that you discourage digging in gardens because it requires energy that can be better used for other things.
倫敦 ：同樣的原則好像也適用於人力能源。我注意到，你並不鼓勵人們在園圃中的進行挖掘，因為那需要消耗能源，而人力能源可以有更好的用途。
Mollison : Well, some people like digging. It's a bit like having an exercise bike in your bedroom. But I prefer to leave it to the worms. They do a great job. I've created fantastic soil just from mulching.
莫利森 ：嗯，有些人喜歡挖東挖西。它有點像是室內的健身自行車。但我寧願把這工作留給蚯蚓那些小蟲，他們天生就是幹這行，我已經從添加覆蓋物的行動中創造美好的土壤。
London : Does permaculture apply to those of us who live in cities?
倫敦 ：樸門永續設計是否也適合生活在城市中的居民?
Mollison : Yes, there is a whole section in the manual about urban permaculture. When I first went to New York, I helped start a little herb-farm in the South Bronx. The land was very cheap there because there was no power, no water, no police, and there were tons of drugs. This little farm grew to supply eight percent of New York's herbs. There are now 1,100 city farms in New York.
莫利森：適合。在介紹手冊中是一整個章節是關於城市的永續栽培。當我第一次去紐約，我在南布朗士區幫忙籌設一座香草農場。那兒的土地非常便宜，因為沒有電力，沒有水，沒有警察，但是有好幾噸的毒品。這個小農場逐漸擴大到供應全紐約市8%香草的的規模。整個紐約如今大約有1100座城市農場。
London : Short of starting a farm, what can we do to make our cities more sustainable?
倫敦 ：除了創設一座農場，我們還有什麼方法能幫助自己的城市存續得更久？
Mollison : Catch the water off your roof. Grow your own food. Make your own energy. It's insanely easy to do all that. It takes you less time to grow your food than to walk down to the supermarket to buy it. Ask any good organic gardener who mulches how much time he spends on his garden and he'll say, "Oh, a few minutes every week." By the time you have taken your car and driven to the supermarket, taken your foraging-trolley and collected your wild greens, and driven back home again, you've spent a good hour or two — plus you've spent a lot of money.
莫利森：收集您屋頂的雨水。種植自己的食物。建立自己的能源系統。這些事其實都再簡單不過。自己種植食物所花的時間比你走去超級市場採買的時間更少。問問看任何有進行土壤覆蓋的有機園丁，他多少時間在覆蓋園圃，他會告訴你「每星期花個幾分鐘吧。」當你開車前往超級市場，取用購物手推車，採集你喜愛的野菜，然後再次開車回家，你已經花了一兩個小時，同時也花了不少錢。
London : Even though permaculture is based on scientific principles, it seems to have a very strong philosophical or ethical dimension.
倫敦：雖然樸門永續設計是以科學原則為基礎，但它似乎也有很紮實的哲學或道德特性。
Mollison : There is an ethical dimension because I think science without ethics is sociopathology. To say, "I'll apply what I know regardless of the outcome" is to take absolutely no responsibility for your actions. I don't want to be associated with that sort of science.
莫利森 ：它的確具有道德特性，因為我認為不包含倫理在內的科學，是一種社會病態（sociopathology）。例如，「我會運用我所知的一切，而不管結果如何」，這種想法完全不對自己的行為負責任。我不希望與那樣的科學為伍。
London : What do you think you've started?
倫敦 ：你如何描述你所開創的這件事？
Mollison : Well, it's a revolution. But it's the sort of revolution that no one will notice. It might get a little shadier. Buildings might function better. You might have less money to earn because your food is all around you and you don't have any energy costs. Giant amounts of money might be freed up in society so that we can provide for ourselves better. So it's a revolution. But permaculture is anti-political. There is no room for politicians or administrators or priests. And there are no laws either. The only ethics we obey are: care of the earth, care of people, and reinvestment in those ends.
莫利森 ：嗯，這是一場革命。但它是那種沒人會注意到的革命。它可能很隱微不顯。可能是建築物運作地更好；也可能是您不再需要賺大錢，因為你周圍到處是食物，也沒有任何能源成本開支；或許巨額的資金被釋放到社會公眾領域，讓我們替自己提供更好的生活。 因此，這是一場革命。但是，永續文化是反政治的。這裡沒有政治人物、行政人員或神職人員存在的空間，也不存在法律。我們唯一遵從的道德倫理是：照顧地球關懷人，不斷努力實現這目的。
This interview was adapted from the radio series Insight & Outlook , hosted by Scott London . It appeared in the Summer 2005 issue of Green Living magazine.
這次專訪改編自電台節目「洞察及展望」（Insight & Outlook），由史考特倫敦主持。它也刊載於2005年夏季發行的《綠色生活》（Green Living）雜誌。
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